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    <p>No worries. Not taken that way. I'm all in favor of precision.</p>
    <p>J.<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/16/17 9:56 AM, Jim Biard wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:75149296-5aeb-f05e-f0c2-7146d8047cd0@cicsnc.org"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <p>John,</p>
      <p>CF is all about precise, scientific, definitions. In precise
        terms, 'Julian Day modulo the year' is different than 'Julian
        Day'. I wasn't meaning to impugn your knowledge or ability.<br>
      </p>
      <p>Grace and peace,</p>
      <p>Jim<br>
      </p>
      <br>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/16/17 3:49 PM, John Helly wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote
        cite="mid:6755a204-7061-d1a6-bce7-ae2ae6948d45@ucsd.edu"
        type="cite">
        <p>In language, definitions are based on usage. Julian date,
          modulo the year, is a convention that I have been using for
          decades to do what you are talking about but I defer to wiser
          minds.</p>
        <p>J.<br>
        </p>
        <br>
        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/16/17 9:42 AM, Jim Biard
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote
          cite="mid:5be48c91-e6c0-dfa2-540d-27c5ed96e2b3@cicsnc.org"
          type="cite">
          <p>John,</p>
          <p>As best as I understand it, Julian day is a term that is
            grossly misused. Julian Day is defined as the elapsed days
            since January 1, 4713 BCE. Lots of people use the term to
            refer to day-in-year, but this doesn't seem to be a proper
            usage.</p>
          <p>Grace and peace,</p>
          <p>Jim<br>
          </p>
          <br>
          <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/16/17 3:36 PM, John Helly
            wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote
            cite="mid:984fbd54-9e59-f70b-2c49-ecee0b6075c5@ucsd.edu"
            type="cite">Sorry to jump in here but isn't this just the
            Julian day? <br>
            <br>
            J. <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            On 3/16/17 8:24 AM, Nan Galbraith wrote: <br>
            <blockquote type="cite">I agree that there's a lot of
              interest, and I have 2 questions. <br>
              <br>
              To make the data most useful, shouldn't the time
              coordinate variable be <br>
              Jan 1, and shouldn't the 'days since' (data) variable
              represent the yearday <br>
              within that year? <br>
              <br>
              My specific concerns with Jim's approach: <br>
              <br>
              first_freeze_date:units = "days since 1900-01-01
              00:00:00"   - This doesn't seem <br>
              to me to provide the most easily used data point, wouldn't
              the year-day be more <br>
              convenient, for seeing how this value varies over the
              years? <br>
              <br>
              And with Antoio's: <br>
              <br>
              first_freeze_date:coordinates="threshold time"; - I don't
              see how threshold, <br>
              which is a temperature, can be a coordinate of this
              variable. Also, I'd like to know <br>
              why setting   time:units="days since 2000-6-1"; is
              preferable to using 2000-1-1; <br>
              doesn't this invite errors in using the time in
              applications like matlab and python? <br>
              <br>
              Actually, the metadata doesn't tell me how to interpret
              the values in first_freeze_date - <br>
              the short name implies that they're dates, the units
              implies they're elapsed days, but <br>
              without a reference date to enable decoding. <br>
              <br>
              Cheers - Nan <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              On 3/16/17 8:45 AM, Jim Biard wrote: <br>
              <blockquote type="cite"> <br>
                Hi. <br>
                <br>
                There is clearly interest here! I agree that day_in_year
                is rather generic, and there should probably be a more
                precise term. I'm not so sure about the cell_methods
                that were suggested below. In my particular case the
                values are derived from a daily Tmin product. Each value
                is the date of the first Tmin < 0 C within the time
                bounds. If it was a spell length, such as growing season
                length, then I can see the need for a more
                climatological cell_method. <br>
                <br>
                We can keep this up and work up some standard_name
                definitions to propose. I'm sure the results will be
                better if we collaborate compared to what I'd do on my
                own. <br>
                <br>
                Grace and peace, <br>
                <br>
                Jim <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                On 3/16/17 7:23 AM, Antonio S. Cofi�o wrote: <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">Dear all, <br>
                  There is no standard_name for the concept but there
                  are 2 different ones which delimit the approach that
                  it could be used as templates for the new one: <br>
                  *time_when_flood_water_falls_below_threshold
                  *(time_when_flood_water_rises_above_threshold and
                  time_of_maximum_flood_depth are also good examples ) <br>
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://cfconventions.org/Data/cf-standard-names/41/build/cf-standard-name-table.html#time_when_flood_water_falls_below_threshold_tr">http://cfconventions.org/Data/cf-standard-names/41/build/cf-standard-name-table.html#time_when_flood_water_falls_below_threshold_tr</a>
                  <br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">The quantity with standard
                    name *time_when_flood_water_falls_below_threshold*:
                    is the time elapsed between the breaking of a levee
                    (origin of flood water simulation) and the instant
                    when the depth falls below a given threshold for the
                    last time, having already risen to its maximum
                    depth, at a given point in space. If a threshold is
                    supplied, it should be specified by associating a
                    coordinate variable or scalar coordinate variable
                    with the data variable and giving the coordinate
                    variable a standard name of flood_water_thickness.
                    The values of the coordinate variable are the
                    threshold values for the corresponding subarrays of
                    the data variable. If no threshold is specified, its
                    value is taken to be zero. Flood water is water that
                    covers land which is normally not covered by water.
                    <br>
                  </blockquote>
                  the problem is the event definition, which is quite
                  different to the one it's been considered here which
                  is more like a climatological statistics. The good
                  thing is the CF already has some good definitions for
                  those climatological statistics, like Example 7.11 on
                  CF1.6 document: <br>
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://cfconventions.org/cf-conventions/v1.6.0/cf-conventions.html#extreme-statistics-and-spell-lengths-ex">http://cfconventions.org/cf-conventions/v1.6.0/cf-conventions.html#extreme-statistics-and-spell-lengths-ex</a>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  And more convenient definition of this climatological
                  statistics could be: <br>
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://cfconventions.org/Data/cf-standard-names/41/build/cf-standard-name-table.html#spell_length_of_days_with_air_temperature_above_threshold_tr">http://cfconventions.org/Data/cf-standard-names/41/build/cf-standard-name-table.html#spell_length_of_days_with_air_temperature_above_threshold_tr</a>
                  <br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">Air temperature is the bulk
                    temperature of the air, not the surface (skin)
                    temperature. A spell is the number of consecutive
                    days on which the condition X_below|above_threshold
                    is satisified. A variable whose standard name has
                    the form
                    spell_length_of_days_with_X_below|above_threshold
                    *must have a coordinate variable or scalar
                    coordinate variable with the a standard name of X to
                    supply the threshold*(s).*It must have a
                    climatological time variable, and a cell_method
                    entry* for within days which describes the
                    processing of quantity X before the threshold is
                    applied. A spell_length_of_days is an intensive
                    quantity in time, and the cell_methods entry for
                    over days can be any of the methods listed in
                    Appendix E appropriate for intensive quantities e.g.
                    "maximum", "minimum" or "mean". <br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <br>
                  And this definition gives a more appropriate way to
                  encode the date of freezing days using a auxiliary
                  coordinate to specify the threshold and use a
                  cell_methods attribute along with the
                  climatology_bounds attribute on time coordinate to
                  specify an statistics over a period. <br>
                  <br>
                  The standard_name should be more like the definition
                  for spell_length_of_days, but removing using 'time' as
                  general instead of days. This what I would suggest
                  with respect to the encoding: <br>
                  <br>
                  variables: <br>
                    float first_freeze_date(lat,lon); <br>
first_freeze_date:standard_name="time_when_air_temperature_below_threshold";
                  <br>
                      first_freeze_date:coordinates="threshold time"; <br>
                      first_freeze_date:cell_methods="time: minimum
                  within days time: minimum over days"; <br>
                      first_freeze_date:units="days"; <br>
                    float last_freeze_date(lat,lon); <br>
last_freeze_date:standard_name="time_when_air_temperature_below_threshold";
                  <br>
                  last_freeze_date:coordinates="threshold time"; <br>
                  last_freeze_date:cell_methods="time: minimum within
                  days time: maximum over days"; <br>
                  last_freeze_date:units="days"; <br>
                    float threshold; <br>
                      threshold:standard_name="air_temperature"; <br>
                      threshold:units="degC"; <br>
                    double time; <br>
                      time:climatology="climatology_bounds"; <br>
                      time:units="days since 2000-6-1"; <br>
                    double climatology_bounds(time,nv); <br>
                  data: // time coordinates translated to date/time
                  string type format <br>
                    time="2008-01-16T00:00"; <br>
                    climatology_bounds="2007-08-01T00:00",
                  "2008-05-31T00:00"; <br>
                    threshold=0.; <br>
                  <br>
                  The time: minimum over days, on first_freeze_date
                  cell_methods attribute represents the shortest time
                  minimum daily temperature (time: minimum within days)
                  is below threshold. <br>
                  Equivalent for the last_freeze_date, but in this cas
                  represents the longest time (time: maximum over days).
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  Regards <br>
                  <br>
                  Antonio <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  -- <br>
                  Antonio S. Cofi�o <br>
                  Associate Professor and Researcher <br>
                  Grupo de Meteorolog�a de Santander <br>
                  Dep. of Applied Mathematics and Computer Sciences <br>
                  Universidad de Cantabria (Spain) <br>
                  <br>
                  Academic Visitor <br>
                  National Centre for Atmospheric Science <br>
                  Department of Meteorology <br>
                  School of Mathematical, Physical and Computational
                  Sciences <br>
                  University of Reading (UK) <br>
                  <br>
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                    href="http://antonio.cofino.es">http://antonio.cofino.es</a>
                  <br>
                  On 15/03/17 18:16, Jim Biard wrote: <br>
                  <blockquote type="cite"> <br>
                    Dan, <br>
                    <br>
                    How about that? I'm working on similar products. We
                    haven't even considered standard names for them. <br>
                    <br>
                    I went ahead and used 'days since YYYY-MM-DD
                    00:00:00' for my first and last frost dates, since
                    they are valid dates. My files are structured as
                    (example for first frost date): <br>
                    <br>
                        dimensions: <br>
                                time = UNLIMITED ; // (56 currently) <br>
                                lon = 960 ; <br>
                                lat = 490 ; <br>
                                bnds = 2 ; <br>
                        variables: <br>
                                double time(time) ; <br>
                                        time:standard_name = "time" ; <br>
                                        time:long_name = "time" ; <br>
                                        time:axis = "T" ; <br>
                                        time:units = "days since
                    1900-01-01 00:00:00" ; <br>
                                        time:calendar = "gregorian" ; <br>
                                        time:bounds = "time_bounds" ; <br>
                                double time_bounds(time, bnds) ; <br>
                                double lon(lon) ; <br>
                                        lon:standard_name = "longitude"
                    ; <br>
                                        lon:long_name = "longitude" ; <br>
                                        lon:units = "degrees_east" ; <br>
                                        lon:modulo = 360. ; <br>
                                        lon:axis = "X" ; <br>
                                        lon:bounds = "lon_bounds" ; <br>
                                double lon_bounds(lon, bnds) ; <br>
                                double lat(lat) ; <br>
                                        lat:standard_name = "latitude" ;
                    <br>
                                        lat:long_name = "latitude" ; <br>
                                        lat:units = "degrees_north" ; <br>
                                        lat:axis = "Y" ; <br>
                                        lat:bounds = "lat_bounds" ; <br>
                                double lat_bounds(lat, bnds) ; <br>
                                float first_freeze_date(time, lat, lon)
                    ; <br>
                                        first_freeze_date:_FillValue =
                    1.e+20f ; <br>
                                        first_freeze_date:missing_value
                    = 1.e+20f ; <br>
                                        first_freeze_date:comment =
                    "Date of the first <br>
                        day with a minimum temperature at or below 0
                    degrees C over the <br>
                        9 month period starting Aug 1 of each year." ; <br>
                                        first_freeze_date:flag_meanings
                    = <br>
                        "No_Freeze_Following" ; <br>
                                        first_freeze_date:long_name =
                    "First freeze date" ; <br>
                                        first_freeze_date:valid_min = 0.
                    ; <br>
                                        first_freeze_date:flag_values =
                    -2. ; <br>
                                        first_freeze_date:units = "days
                    since 1900-01-01 <br>
                        00:00:00" ; <br>
                                        first_freeze_date:calendar =
                    "standard" ; <br>
                    <br>
                    with the time bounds reflecting 1 Aug to 1 May for
                    each year. <br>
                    <br>
                    On 3/15/17 1:50 PM, Hollis, Dan wrote: <br>
                    <blockquote type="cite"> <br>
                      Hi Jon, <br>
                      <br>
                      I�d be interested to know how to tackle this
                      problem too. I�ve recently been generating some
                      datasets of �date of first frost� and �date of
                      last frost� and have no idea how to describe them
                      in a CF-compliant way. <br>
                      <br>
                      Jim�s suggestion of �day_of_year� is better than
                      just �days�, however this doesn�t capture what the
                      �something� is that has happened, nor that is the
                      first/last/Nth occurrence of that event. What sort
                      of events are you looking at? <br>
                      <br>
                      In my application I�m just looking at UK data,
                      hence my �year� runs from 1^st July to 30^th June
                      (to span the N Hemisphere winter). It�s easy
                      enough to use the bounds to indicate this, but I�m
                      then not sure what values to store in the data
                      array. Number of days since 1^st July maybe? Or
                      ordinal date (1^st Jan = 1, 31^st Dec = 365)? <br>
                      <br>
                      Dan <br>
                      <br>
                      PS I have a whole bunch of other metrics that I�m
                      looking at e.g. length of the longest spell,
                      number of spells greater then N days etc. These
                      seem even more complicated to describe using CF.
                      Something for another post I think... <br>
                      <br>
                      *From:*CF-metadata [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                        href="mailto:cf-metadata-bounces@cgd.ucar.edu">mailto:cf-metadata-bounces@cgd.ucar.edu</a>]
                      *On Behalf Of *Jim Biard <br>
                      *Sent:* 15 March 2017 16:28 <br>
                      *To:* <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                        href="mailto:cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu">cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu</a>
                      <br>
                      *Subject:* Re: [CF-metadata] Recording "day of
                      year on which something happens" <br>
                      <br>
                      Jon, <br>
                      <br>
                      I agree that a cell_methods attribute doesn't seem
                      to be necessary. A new standard_name like
                      'day_in_year' or 'day_of_year' would likely make
                      things clearer. <br>
                      <br>
                      Jim <br>
                      <br>
                      On 3/15/17 11:22 AM, Jon Blower wrote: <br>
                      <br>
                          Thanks Jim, that�s very helpful. Is
                      cell_methods necessary in <br>
                          this case (for the time axis bounds) �
                      probably not since this <br>
                          isn�t a statistical quantity like an average,
                      but a value <br>
                          that�s �representative� of the year. <br>
                      <br>
                          I seem to remember from a while back that
                      there was a proposal <br>
                          to allow time axes to use �calendar years
                      since X� (as opposed <br>
                          to �years since X�, which uses a fixed-length
                      UDUNITS year), <br>
                          which might handle this use case. I have been
                      out of the loop <br>
                          for a while, but I can�t find mention of that
                      in the CF spec, <br>
                          so maybe that didn�t go through. <br>
                      <br>
                          I might consider requesting a new standard
                      name � �days� is <br>
                          good, but I wonder if a more specific one
                      would be helpful. <br>
                      <br>
                          Best wishes, <br>
                          Jon <br>
                      <br>
                          *From: *CF-metadata <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                        href="mailto:cf-metadata-bounces@cgd.ucar.edu"><cf-metadata-bounces@cgd.ucar.edu></a>
                      <br>
                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                        href="mailto:cf-metadata-bounces@cgd.ucar.edu"><mailto:cf-metadata-bounces@cgd.ucar.edu></a>
                      on behalf of Jim <br>
                          Biard <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                        href="mailto:jbiard@cicsnc.org"><jbiard@cicsnc.org></a>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                        href="mailto:jbiard@cicsnc.org"><mailto:jbiard@cicsnc.org></a>
                      <br>
                          *Date: *Tuesday, 14 March 2017 15:12 <br>
                          *To: *<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                        href="mailto:cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu">"cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu"</a>
                      <br>
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                        href="mailto:cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu"><mailto:cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu></a>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
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                      <br>
                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                        href="mailto:cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu"><mailto:cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu></a>
                      <br>
                          *Subject: *Re: [CF-metadata] Recording "day of
                      year on which <br>
                          something happens" <br>
                      <br>
                          Jon, <br>
                      <br>
                          1) I'd use 'days'. It is a valid standard name
                      apart from the <br>
                          'days since date' formalism. It's not perfect,
                      but it's legal. <br>
                          You could, alternatively, request a new
                      standard name. <br>
                      <br>
                          2) Use a time_bounds variable. I would tend to
                      set the time to <br>
                          be July 1 at midnight for each year, and set
                      the bounds for <br>
                          each year to Jan 1 of that year and Jan 1 of
                      the next year. <br>
                      <br>
                          Grace and peace, <br>
                      <br>
                          Jim <br>
                      <br>
                          On 3/14/17 10:43 AM, Jon Blower wrote: <br>
                      <br>
                              Hi all, <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                              We need to structure a NetCDF file that
                      will hold a variable that represents the day of
                      the year on which an event happened (integers from
                      0 to 366). This value is recorded every year for a
                      number of years. I have a couple of questions
                      about how best to do this: <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                              1. What is the best standard name to use
                      for the day of the year? I didn�t find anything in
                      the standard name table, although I might have
                      missed it. <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                              2. What would be the best way to define
                      the time axis? Each point along the axis would
                      represent a whole year, rather than an instant in
                      time. I could simply pick an arbitrary instant
                      (e.g. midnight on 1st Jan) to represent the year,
                      but is there a better way? <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                              Thanks in advance for any help! <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                              Jon <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                    </blockquote>
                  </blockquote>
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        <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
John Helly, University of California, San Diego / San Diego Supercomputer Center / Scripps Institution of Oceanography / 760 840 8660 mobile / <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.sdsc.edu/%7Ehellyj">http://www.sdsc.edu/~hellyj</a>
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    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
John Helly, University of California, San Diego / San Diego Supercomputer Center / Scripps Institution of Oceanography / 760 840 8660 mobile / <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.sdsc.edu/~hellyj">http://www.sdsc.edu/~hellyj</a>
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